153 – Paving the Road for Biological Pest Control in Niger

David: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the IDEMS Podcast. I’m David Stern, a founding director of IDEMS, and it’s my privilege today to be here with Laouali, a member of the Sahel IPM team. A few weeks ago, our regular listeners might have heard from Boaua, who works with Laouali. And I’m really privileged to have this opportunity to tell your story. Hi Laouali. 

Laouali: Hello, David. How are you doing? 

David: I’m doing well. It’s great to have you here. I first met you over 10 years ago now, and I believe you were still a student at that point. When did you start with the GIMEM project? 

Laouali: Thank you so much for this opportunity to express myself regarding to my story with the GIMEM teams and biological control activities. [00:01:00] So when I finished my Bachelor of Agriculture in 2008, then by the same year I joined GIMEM team, my first attachment at INRAN Maradi. So I joined when I found Dr. Baoua establishing GIMEM activities in the country.

David: Can I just check, when you talk about an attachment, was this part of your studies or was this after your studies? 

Laouali: It is after my studies, internship years. 

David: Yes. Great. 

Laouali: So when I did the application, I was sent to his laboratory. 

David: Wonderful.

Laouali: So I joined the team by start rearing Habrobracon hebetor. This is the parasitoid we used to control the damage of the head miner in the country. I did my first trip in rural community with the GIMEM project. 

David: Are you from a rural community or are you from a town, where? 

Laouali: I was born in the city. So before, I don’t have experience of the farmer. I just eating millet, I’m eating the product [00:02:00] with processed with the millet, but I don’t know how to grow. It is at the university with the trials I conducted that I know. Honestly, as I’m based in the town, so I don’t know how the rural life is.

Is with the GIMEM project when I started going to discuss with the farmer before releasing the insect, we have to discuss with them. Then later we have to come back to release the insect, to ask that we are doing the pilot test. Then at the end of the rainy season, we have to go back to assess the effect of the release of the parasitoid we did. 

David: Absolutely. And this is in the Maradi region of Niger. 

Laouali: Maradi region and the Zinder region. And I discover another region, but before I never went to Zinder region. 

David: Wow. 

Laouali: With the activity, even I know more village in Zinder region than my locality, Maradi region. Then I continue working in the project with Baoua. Then after graduation, you have to spend two [00:03:00] years of what we call a national service. 

David: So can I check? Some people would go to the army and some people do a form of civil service. And so you chose to do a civil service. 

Laouali: Yes. I was sent to INRAN. Then we did arrangement to be here for the Maradi team and the GIMEM team. So I continue working.

David: I heard from Baoua that actually there was a summer, when you had been involved a little bit, where you told him, I have nothing to do, I want to just be involved. Is that correct? 

Laouali: Yes. This is after gradation. So even before the attachment, after graduation. So I came with Baoua to join the team. So we had a long strike at the university. So I stay without doing anything. I ask myself, I will be the future bioresearch officer technician, so instead of staying without doing anything I have to go to seek for small attachment before graduation. So I did it with him.

David: And that was when, that was 2007? 

Laouali: I did the first one is [00:04:00] 2003 while I was in 200 levels. Then 2008 I joined, after graduation, the team. Then 2009, I continue for the service. Then at the end of my service, I got the scholarship with GIMEM, where I went to University of Niamey, I did my master’s. So I work in the project, I worked in Tahoua region. So the work generate a strong paper because we had many sites and other students, bachelors students involved in the study. 

David: So I want to just take ourselves back a little bit here because I didn’t know you until after all that. I first met you I believe in 2014, and so all of this is before I knew you. And in a recent episode I was discussing with Baoua, he talked about how really in 2006, when he got the GIMEM grant, this was really what enabled him to [00:05:00] take off with his research. 

Laouali: Yes. 

David: And so it is very interesting to me, and this is why I believe he encouraged us to have this discussion, is you are the student on which he’s modeled a lot of his future applications for students, where he’s now built this whole team. This idea of the Master’s students supervising the Bachelor students, the PhD students supervising the Master’s students. You were the first, is that correct? 

Laouali: Yes. I was the first to get the scholarship for master’s and I was the first to get PhD in biological control in my country. So, as you mentioned, all the work from 2008, we work together with a number of students. So we did what you call a pyramid program. So if you are a master’s student, you’ll work with the bachelor student. Bachelor student are working together with a technician from the institution. 

So that’s where I think we train together, we supervise [00:06:00] students, together I think, more than a hundred students. Then at the same times with the farmers, sometimes we have to train the farmers. And along the pathway, many NGO who are interested by technology. Because we were working as project, the project cannot satisfy the whole country. But we have another NGO working in some region, when they heard about the technology with the establishment of the cottage industry from 2014. So the information is the national information about the technology because we started, what you call, autonomiser. 

David: Well, to actually give that independence… 

Laouali: Independence to farmers to produce the parasitoid and sell to the other farmers with this approach. So I even gain a project with bank model. 

David: Yes. The World Bank. 

Laouali: So that mean now I am well known in the biological, in the whole country. Then I have, I can [00:07:00] say a quiet skills regarding the management and the establishment and the cottage industry for the biological control. 

David: It’s not just that you are well known. Unless I’m mistaken, after Baoua left INRAN, he left a gap there because he was the one leading this, this big lab and so on. Who filled that role? 

Laouali: Yes. When he left, he was the director of the center. At the same time he was the head of the laboratory. So when he is very busy with some administrative work, I was the one who was giving him the hand by that time. So even him, he wanted to leave previously. But he say he has to make sure that even he leave, he has some people that you are able to pursue the work. 

So when he left, for the university, we continue with my colleague. So I take over and I became the head of the lab, but we still continue collaborating with him [00:08:00] from the university. So all the projects we’re collaborating together, working together. But most what we’re doing now, I’m in charge of field work. I’m in charge of supervising students and providing some topic. Then he was in charge at the university. 

David: At the university, exactly. And that has, just in terms of what this has created as opportunities for you as a team, having someone at the university has again created access to students in ways which have, I believe, increased again, the capacity of your lab, of your team, and that collaboration between the two. 

Although I believe there have been institutional challenges around politics at the different institutions at times, it has been extremely beneficial to have this division of both the university side and the National Research Center, and both of those working together as part of the same team. 

Laouali: Yes. Yes. 

David: So, let’s get back to your story a bit because I’d like to get to at least when we first met, ’cause you were still [00:09:00] a PhD student then, is that correct? 

Laouali: No. When I met you I just started my PhD. 

David: Yes. You just started your PhD then. Okay. Maybe I should rephrased. You were a PhD student at that time you’d just been taken on, I think in 2014, which is when we first met.

Laouali: Yes. 

David: And this was sort of, seeing you again, as you say, you’re the first PhD in Niger on biological control, but you’re not the last, there have been many since you now, you were the pioneer of many following through that route. Is it something where, looking back to those times when you were starting your PhD and you were going into this direction, you feel a pioneer in this, you feel that you were a bit of a trailblazer, how do you feel about that experience? Did you feel that weight of responsibility of being the first, were you conscious of the fact that you were creating a path that others would follow or were you just involved in the work? 

Laouali: Yes, it was not [00:10:00] difficult for me because I think is the same work we were doing. By that time we have to optimize. We did some basic work before 2015. But the time to make the farmer to be independent, it is time to make sure we have to optimize to make the technology affordable. We have to check to see what we have we doing, if we have to adjust about the density of insects we are releasing, we have to look for the optimal time to release; can we release the insect previously at the flowering stage? 

Because before we were releasing the insect at the grain stage. Then we discover a lot of damage because by the time the farmers informing and accessing the parasitoid, the damage had already been done. So we have to [00:11:00] look to see what will be the effect if we release the insects by the time the larva, the caterpillar is not in the field. 

So we did this work, we optimized, we know that we can release the insects even from the panicle emergence. Then we reduce the number of the bag to release. Instead of releasing 15, so we end up seeing that even releasing 12 is enough to have the same effect. Then we optimize, because we have the cottage industry, we have to optimize the production. The good larva will be submitted to the parasitoid in the release bag or in the release box. So we improve the diet by adding some protein source in order to have a very big larva which will produce a very vigorous parasitoid to be very more active in term of action, in term of longevity in the field. 

So we end off having this with my team. So I’m [00:12:00] proud of this work because by doing this, we reduce the price. We reduce the quantity of the millet put in the release bag. So by doing this optimization, the price of the technology came down. 

David: What I’m hearing as well is that you felt always that this was just a natural progression of your work. You never felt the responsibility of those following because what has happened since is truly phenomenal. You have now been supervising students, you started when you were very young as a master’s student, already supervising bachelor’s, but it’s just been natural all the way through your experience. You have always been supervising the students who are following you. 

And now, I mean, the team has really exploded. There’s so many Master’s students, you were mentioning more than a hundred students have gone through and been trained in this way, in these technologies, through the laboratory, which you are now leading and running.[00:13:00] 

And so as you have taken these responsibilities and they felt natural, you’ve also created your own independent set of activities. I believe you’ve had now some grants, which you are sort of leading on, beyond the grants that you are working on with Professor Baoua. Do you want to tell us something about some of those extra activities? 

Laouali: Yes. We had experience with, it was the first insect we had in my lab. But with this experience from Habrobracon hebetor, so we have now about eight insects including the pest and the natural enemy. So we have the insects controlling the pest of maize. We have the parasitoid controlling the pest of Moringa. We have parasitoid controlling the pest of cowpea. I have 2 of them, I have a Triotemnus, I have Trichoderma, I have about six parasitoids with in my [00:14:00] lab with their host. 

And this experience allow me to gain other projects, other fund from other project. So I can mention the project from World Bank, I was the leader of IPM.

David: Integrated Pest Management. 

Laouali: Yes. We were what we call seeder project. I was the focal point with one Norwegian project regarding to the black soldier fly. I was even the co-PI until the pest management of cowpea pest with USAID. Then I was involved in number of the project team from this experience, again, for the parasitoid from the GIMEM activities. 

So now I have a number, so even my lab, I’m the head lab, but I have a team of 13 permanent, all of them who have experience. So for this time, if there’s training, not only for me to go and do the training, so I have a colleagues, I have technician, I have some [00:15:00] bachelor students who has this experience with me who can go do the work.

Then, I’m even happy I have some student with me work, which are now working in NGOs. 

David: Yes. 

Laouali: So I think it is a great, opportunity, and I’m happy to have this achievement. And another experience again, if I remember, it’s not only the insects, it’s not only the management of the project. Even the way to collect data, how to weigh the input, how to weigh the output of what the activities we did. We started working with your father, Roger Stern, we worked with him. 

So we have one colleague, we worked together, she even cried because of the data and he did some comment of her data. We came to Niamey to do the training with him, then he verified the data. So he saw the data was collected wrongly, we have a gap between some data. [00:16:00] We have what we call aberrant data in France. 

David: Yeah, yeah. Outliers. 

Laouali: So we have to go and search for the paper from which you collect data. So we have to send someone to go back to Maradi and take.

So from that period, so we gain some experience in order to follow, because most of the time our student collect data, so sometime we don’t care to verify it very well. And the way to collect, even from the questionnaire, we have to make sure that the student has to test the questionnaire before going to the field.

David: Absolutely. 

Laouali: We have to make sure that he can record the data as we wish to be done. So we improve ourselves even using some package to analyzing the data. So we had this experience and even the way to add value to our paper, to [00:17:00] our manuscript. So we have a number of manuscript because each student, the master student is a manuscript on our team.

So that’s why maybe we are among the project with a great number of papers, manuscripts we develop, because each PhD has to, before defense, three to four papers. This one of our strong in this project. 

And remember from the National Institute, I mentioned that we are 13 permanently, but they have only one, I can say one technician, but all of them it’s our old students that we targeted, we saw them very active and able to conduct the work. So they are giving them some contract, some small contract to working with us.

And that’s why if you have experience last year with work, we discover that you are good, so we can [00:18:00] accept you for another attachment, but you’ll contribute to the new student to collect very carefully with the data and to have a good data also to make a good publication. 

David: Well, this is where, you know, I’ve always seen you as this trailblazer actually creating that quality, creating that culture, that’s actually been getting this sort of strong result coming out. 

One of the things which I’m interested for you now is what do you see going forward? I mean, with Sahel IPM, which is the evolution of GIMEM, where you are now looking at many different pests in many different crops. And you mentioned also black soldier fly as being a different way of using insects. What do you see as sort of going forward for the lab, for yourself? How do you see this evolving? 

Laouali: For the future perspective? 

David: Yes. 

Laouali: I [00:19:00] think now it’s not millet the problem. We have other pests, especially vegetables. 

David: Can I just confirm? Because again, maybe our listeners don’t know Niger, but actually Niger, although it’s a very dry country, it’s a desert country, really, it exports onions down to the coast. Is that right? It exports tomatoes, I believe down to the coast as well. So actually, a lot of the onions and tomatoes, which you would eat in the coastal regions, you know, of Nigeria, Ghana, Benin, Togo, they’re supplied from Niger. And this is sort of where you are talking about some of these vegetable productions, which people are doing on quite a serious scale.

Laouali: Yes. Perhaps you mentioned we are producing vegetables like onion and tomato to export to the countries like Nigeria, Benin and Togo, even Ghana. But our [00:20:00] vegetables cannot be exported to Europe, for example. Why? Because people are using the pesticide, they’re using chemical, they spray. So they don’t respects the right amount, the right pesticide to the right crop, to the right time. That’s why there’s a problem of resistance for insects. 

So maybe if food analysis is done, you’ll see maybe the residue of pesticide and the tomato or in lettuce or in onion. So that’s why now we are focusing the same approach we use to generate the farmer’s independency with the agroecological technology in the same way. We went to focus on vegetable crops by suggesting the bio pesticide to treat, to deal with the pest [00:21:00] by suggesting them the organic, organic fertilizer. Those coming from the black soldier fly. 

So we know the insects are making a lot of damage on tomato and other vegetables. So these fruit spoiled by the insect cannot be bring to the market. So they may end up being in the garbage. Our new technology, black soldier fly, we can use this trash organic, the spoiled fruits, the spoiled vegetables, it can be used. Though the presence of pesticide, the larva, black soldier, can survive and can produce organic fertilizer, and can produce the lipids and the protein that can be used to feed other animals.

And the fertilizer can be used for vegetable. So at the same time, we can produce and establish the cottage industry for neem tea [00:22:00] bag. So we develop one technology, what we call neem tea bag, especially with one project funded by USAID. But now we are establishing, we have, I think, a number, about 20 cottage industry.

Then I’m very happy as Baoua mentioned, so now we are able to influence the government policy. Because now they know, they invited us to have a meeting at ministry in order to establish a national committee in charge of the biological control of the millet pest in Niger. So this is a great achievement and I think we can proceed the same achievement with the other crops, and even with the technology, with the recent technology, I mentioned also the fly. 

So we can proceed to make a certification to make the normalization of the product. And maybe this may be a way [00:23:00] to have a product having value the farmers. Maybe we can sell their products abroad, in US or in Europe. 

David: When your veg come to Europe, I would be very happy because they are delicious. 

Laouali: Yes. 

David: When you grow tomatoes in a dry environment they really come out very tasty. 

Laouali: Yes. 

David: And, now, we’re out of time, but I just wanted to finish by asking you, are there any last thoughts that you’d like to share with our listeners? This journey you’ve been on has been, it’s not over, it’s just still starting in some sense, you are early in your career. You are already well established. Are there any thoughts you’d like to share for maybe the students that are following you, the next generation that’s going to come through into a world where actually these technologies are present and there’s opportunities now? What would you like to share? 

Laouali: Yes, I would like to share, I [00:24:00] have first to mention that we did a great job. Why? Because we even, I don’t know if you remember, we got a prize for this technology generated by GIMEM Project and funded by the McKnight Foundation. 

David: Tell us about the prize very quickly. 

Laouali: Yeah. The BIFAD prize that I got from USAID when I was doing my PhD. Then I know there is a partial support I have with the McKnight and also support is with the USAID. So we have this BIFAD prize for this technology as is very cheapest technology. Then, my next step, from this year, next year, I will be able to host and supervise the PhD students.

So I will enroll myself with the university. So I have to involve some student for the next step of the biological control. We will not abandon, because I would like to [00:25:00] see one of all the product, like student technician to establish his own cottage industry. All what we have is from the farmer’s organization. But I need to see if one student who study, who did his diploma with the technology, if establish it, what will be the difference in term of performance? What will be the difference in term of coverage? 

David: Well, this is where working on these products, the more commercial products like tomatoes and onions, this is where there is that opportunity. There is a higher commercial opportunity where somebody who’s entrepreneurial and could take that on, it would be very exciting to see what happens. And I think to encourage the next generation to try and to try and use this to make a living, to build something. 

Laouali: Yes. Because my wish is to have a safe food using all the [00:26:00] agroecological technology. You know, in Niger if you are working organic product, it’s not in all the city that we can get it, but my wish, because we have a lot of technology, so it’s the kind of arrangement we have to do, and also the farmer will apply them and produce fully agroecological product or organic product that will be safe for consumption in the country. 

So I wish that to have a big market, specialize market or specialize, what you call alimentation in the country for this product using the technology generated by the McKnight. Not all, because we have some person working on seeds, other are working on other source of fertilizer. So I think my wish is to work on synergy to have a basket of option [00:27:00] that farmers will use and present the safe food to the consumer. Even in the rural area and even in the urban city, urban area. That’s my wish. 

David: It’s a beautiful wish and what a wonderful way to finish. 

Laouali: Thank you. 

David: Thank you so much for taking the time. 

Laouali: Thank you for allowing me to express myself in English. 

David: Well , it’s the first time we’ve had a conversation in English. It’s nice, your English is wonderful, congratulations. 

Laouali: I’ve tried.

David: Yeah. It has been great to have you, what a pleasure. 

Laouali: Thank you.