33 – The IDEMS Principle Conclusion

[00:00:06] David: Hi, and welcome to the IDEMS Principle. The final IDEMS Principle. I’m David Stern, one of the founding directors of IDEMS, and I’m here with my co directors, Kate and Danny. We’ve made it to the end, and looking forward to this discussion. Kate, I’m really grateful that you’ve agreed to guide us through this discussion.

[00:00:27] Kate: Yes, although this one I’ve agreed also to participate in. 

All right, so I guess this is really the proper conclusion, where we’re reflecting on everything we’ve discussed, everything that’s been discussed, but really moving forward, where do we go from here? So I guess my first point would be, now that the entire series has been recorded, you know, did you come away with any sort of new perspective on the principles, or new thoughts on how they might land for other people?

[00:00:54] David: Danny, do you want to start?

[00:00:56] Danny: For me, it was going through the discussions as we discussed the sort of sets of them, just firstly how well they still kind of resonated and how relevant they are to sort of practical decision making. I sort of describe them as, having done the sort of heavy lifting for us in terms of decision making, that we can use them to fall back on.

And many of them have stayed very similar over the sort of six years that IDEMS has existed. So really, really good to see that they’re, you know, they’re still as relevant as they were when they were sort of more theoretical at the start. Discussing them as sets of groups, I was more involved in those discussions across principles, and so I think it also helped me to, think of, see how they’re already connected to each other, that they’re not really so just distinct and separate ideas, they all relate to each other within those groups and across them. 

[00:01:55] David: I really want to echo Danny’s statement. The fact that they have remained and they have been used as much as they have over the last six years, we really have used them, they’ve become second nature, they’ve helped us to make quick decisions. But, we have confidence that, well, you know, if we’re getting it wrong, it’s because our principles are wrong, we trust our principles. And so we’ve used them to make quick decisions. 

I found going through, actually recording this series, has been, I was involved in the individual discussions, I was involved in the group discussions, the introductions, the conclusions, and I am really surprised at how central the principles are to what we are and what we want to be.

And so if I have a new perspective on this, then It’s simply this fact that we need to lean into our principles even more than we’ve done in the past. We had them, they’ve existed in some form since the very beginning. They have evolved, they have changed, we’ve lost one or two, we’ve gained a whole number of other ones, but as a whole they’ve remained relatively consistent. 

And we need to actually now lean into them more. That’s, I guess, what I’m really taking away.

[00:03:16] Kate: I think the thing that came out for me, and it also aligns with what you’re saying is you can see, or you can hear in listening to these, that there’s an element where it’s almost like learning how to drive, where you are learning how to make these decisions, what the decisions are that are to be made, what the principles are, all of these different things that when you’re first, making a decision with the principles applied it feels quite laborious where you really have to think like, oh, is this open? Is this closed? Ah. 

And so it can feel kind of stressful. But I think what you and Danny both show very well, and I feel like I have some of this is, actually, once these are internalized, it’s really not that big of a deal to use these as a framework through which you make decisions, it just becomes very normal, like any other thing, like knowing how to drive, that you just get in the car and you do your thing and you don’t even think about the fact that, oh, when I was 16 or 18 you know, it was so hard to learn this skill and it was so, you know, everything felt so stressful and momentous and that it stops feeling that way. 

I think recognizing that people, many people will still be on that journey, and new team members will be on that journey, and the various people who will have to play a little bit of, you know, will have to learn and play a little bit of catching up to be able to really run with these. 

[00:04:38] David: My question to you quickly on this is that I would argue that the reason we felt comfortable taking you on as a director was because the principles, before you knew of the principles, you already lived these. 

[00:04:54] Kate: I know. 

[00:04:54] David: You know, when you come into them, it’s sort of like, oh, okay, yeah, I agree with that, what’s the big deal? But that’s so rare. 

[00:05:03] Kate: Yeah, you had systematized many things that I had intuited, or you had externalized things that I had kind of internally worked through and understood, and recognized that I had to constantly be consciously making decisions about. But I didn’t have this whole nice framework with these principles all laid out for me. So it’s been, it’s been refreshing and also a relief I think, like oh there’s a system here that’s all this stuff that I was just experiencing. 

[00:05:30] David: And I think this is where, you know, we’d given up on actually getting in someone external to become part of the leadership team, you know, as we’ve got now the three of us as the directors. But the way that these were internal to you is I think representative of why we were so comfortable and confident having you come in and influence us because we’re aligned on the principles. And I think the fact that you could then look at the principles and go and engage with them as you have. 

And that they resonated, that’s, I think, a big part of what we also want to do. We want to find more people for whom these principles resonate. Not because these principles are right, not because they’re the best way to do things, and so this is again this other element of perspective, but because if other people resonate with these principles, they’re probably people we want to work with.

[00:06:21] Kate: They’re also working on problems that we want to solve, because if this is your mindset, it means you’re focused on a particular, or you’re moving in a particular direction, you’re not just building a commercial business, you are definitely thinking about something more complex. 

[00:06:37] David: Impacting grand challenges. 

[00:06:39] Kate: Yes, grand challenges. Basically. Yes. 

[00:06:42] David: I know nobody likes to admit it, but that’s what it is, if you’re working with these people . 

[00:06:47] Kate: I guess , one quick final point. I think the other thing that was a relief for me is that neither of you is dogmatic. You have these principles, but it’s not religion, it’s guiding, it’s helpful, but there’s no point when you’re not practical, like, oh, well, we actually need business, we need to make money, we need to be sustainable. And so I find that pragmatism also where values aligned, because, you know, you want to survive, you want to be sustainable, it’s not just like principles, these are great, but… 

[00:07:19] David: And I suppose this is the difference between principles and values. Because if you go against somebody’s values, then, oh, but these are the principles, they’re guiding principles. We do have our values, but our values are close to our chest. They’re personal.

The principles, these are what we can put out on the table and argue and debate. They’re academic, but they’re useful. They’re guiding. And I think that’s a really important part of that sort of dogmatism, as you put it. Being able to sort of be practical in this. That’s what they’re supposed to be.

[00:07:51] Kate: So moving on to my next question for you, and I suspect you’re going to have a lot of answers to this and a lot of thoughts on this. Do you think, coming out of this series, that there’s still more that you would like to explore that you think needs more digging into or that you only scratched the surface of?

[00:08:09] David: Yes, Danny, your turn. 

[00:08:12] Danny: Yeah, I’m sure you’ve got a lot of things to say. I’m also interested in ways of communicating the principles. You know, we’ve got them written down, but we’ve now done these sort of podcasts to go into them in more depth. Does this help people to, is this a good way for people to sort of try to ingest them and understand them , and then be involved in discussions around them? Should there be other things? Should we be writing them up more? Should we be doing case studies? Should we be linking them to our work and our projects in some way? 

I guess the answer is sort of yes to all of those. It’ll be useful. But yeah, what would it be useful to help more people see them how we see them and sort of feel them as a useful tool and so on. So I think , yeah, there’s a lot more, I think the podcast has been a really efficient way, I guess, of digging into them a bit one by one. I’m sure there’s a lot more that people would find useful as well.

[00:09:14] David: I’m going to try and keep this brief because Danny’s brought out the key point. Yes, we want to dig in more, there’s lots of other things. Having been central to all the discussions through the podcast episodes, the thing which I would love is, I’d love other people , you know, to study them. To actually sort of say, okay, you know, you claim this is a good principle, if it’s a good principle it should have, and we’ve been able to do this, in many cases we’ve articulated what are the alternatives, why are the alternatives also good, and we’re just making a decision to prioritise one over the other. Is that a good idea to prioritise? In what context does that prioritisation work well? 

I feel this is academic studies. I’m an academic at heart, and you know, this is sort of where I come from. And I would love it if people actually said, well, okay, we’ll take one of your principles, not the whole 20, one of your principles, and that’ll be the subject of my PhD. That’s sort of what I feel, you know, a PhD on each of the principles, where people dig into them, not just for us. But in general, looking at this, what other organizations follow this principle? Do they have the same principle? Is it different? What are the different things to be able to look at? That would be really fascinating. 

I don’t feel that’s going to happen, but I’d love it if it did. And it’s something where I feel there’s real depth that could come out of this. Anyway, that is something where, I believe very strongly that we have articulated principles which are important for us and our decision making. Through this podcast series, we have started to be able to share that with a wider audience. 

But I would love this to become a debate, to become a constructive debate. Not about trying to win what’s right, what’s wrong, because that’s not what principles are about. But trying to say, okay, well, what are the advantages and disadvantages? And if we can agree there are advantages and disadvantages, that’s where articulating that better, as Danny said, case studies, this sort of thing, would be really powerful. 

[00:11:27] Kate: I do think those specific cases help people work through the logic of something, and really see, well, this is a case where this principle makes sense, and this is a case where it just doesn’t, it doesn’t apply. Because unless you see the real world, you know, something play out in the real world, it’s very hard to really grasp what the implications of something are. 

[00:11:46] Danny: And what would you like to see Kate next, sort of coming into them a bit later, you know, and got going through them, where should we go next?

[00:11:55] Kate: I really don’t think it’s more principles podcasts. I see it more in just the regular IDEMS podcast. I think you can listen to any of them and you see this playing out. Once you have this layer in mind, you see this as underpinning the conversation, it’s so clearly informing the perspective, the decision making, the way a project played out, all of that.

So I think it is those lived experiences and watching people think through decisions. I suppose, we always aim to be transparent, really bringing people in early, I think often in technology you just see the final deployment, you don’t actually ever hear what were all the decisions that went on behind the scenes, why did people choose to do this this way? All of those different things. 

So I think to bring anyone in much earlier to understand there are choices, there are hard choices often, and all of them have benefits and costs, and to let them be on that journey. I think it makes people feel much more empowered about technology and understanding about technology, and impact, and interventions, and all of these different layers.

[00:13:03] David: And just to be clear, you’re thinking of this very much from a community perspective. You’re thinking of bringing a community on that journey of building tech using these approaches. And I absolutely hear that in what you’re saying, and I love that. This is where we’re so well aligned.

The one thing I do just want to sort of flag up is that the other thing I did hear in what you’re saying is that, you know, if you’ve had the patience to go through this, what is it, 30 plus hours of, principle podcast, then there’s more podcasts for you to listen to, just listen to the regular series and you’ll see how this applies to this. 

[00:13:39] Kate: So that brings me to my last question. Someone has listened to the entire series, bless them, what is a final thought you want to leave them with? What do you want to send them off with? 

[00:13:51] David: Get in touch. If you’ve listened, if you’ve invested this much time in what we do, in what we care about, and you’re still here listening, we’d love to hear what you think, critique , actually engage. These principles are there to be, they’re out in the world, we’re putting them out into the world, not because we expect lots and lots of listeners on this, but because we think if people do engage and if they resonate, then we might not be alone. Maybe there’ll be others. And maybe Danny, from our perspective, maybe we can find more Kates , people who actually align on our principles. 

[00:14:27] Kate: It’s like searching for aliens.

[00:14:30] Danny: Yeah, that was exactly going to be mine, I don’t want to leave them with any more thoughts, they’ve had enough of that in the series, but yeah, to engage. That’s both, new people that we haven’t heard from, but also our own team to now, you know, have the ability to engage with us on this more, and it doesn’t have to, of course, be only having listened to every single one and all the hours and hours of it, but even just specific aspects of it or just to have questions or, you know, hopefully feel a bit better understanding of it now. 

That doesn’t necessarily mean agreeing with it, or it could then now, how does this relate to when this happened and so on. And I think we’d love to be involved in those discussions more with all kinds of people. 

[00:15:19] Kate: So let’s leave it there. Thank you. Thanks for recording this whole series. It was interesting. That sounded so interesting. 

[00:15:26] David: That’s exactly what we’d expect to get from somebody with sort of real humanity in them, talking to mathematicians, perfectly condescending, and we appreciate it.

[00:15:37] Kate: I didn’t mean it that way. It was interesting.

Okay, thanks guys. 

[00:15:43] David: Thanks, that was great.