162 – The Origins of the Food Innovation Centres in West Africa

[00:00:06] Lucie: Hi, and welcome to the IDEMS podcast. My name’s Lucie Hazelgrove Planel. I’m a social impact scientist and I’m here today with Moustapha Moussa from Niger. Moustapha, you have been on our episodes before, speaking with David about your exciting project called, I think, Grain Processing.

[00:00:26] Moustapha: Yes.

[00:00:27] Lucie: And we also have Gabriela Bucini. I’m used to calling you Gabi, who is from the University of Vermont, the new Institute for Agroecology. So Moustapha, previously you’ve discussed the amazing impact the centres of innovation you have been working with have had, about nutrition in and around Niger. Is it only Niger? I think it’s other countries as well.

And so in this episode, I’m really interested to know more about these centres of innovation. How did they come about? What was the situation when you started, perhaps?

[00:01:05] Moustapha: Okay. Thank you so much, Lucie, for giving me the opportunity to give a brief idea about the food innovation centres. Actually, I can say that those centres were created accidentally, because the initial interest was not the centres. Our initial interest was just to go and get like a linkage with those women group working with Mooriben and Fuma Gaskyia.

[00:01:37] Lucie: Farmer federations.

[00:01:38] Moustapha: Farmer federation, they can help in term of, like, grain preparation, quality grain that can be processed in the cities.

[00:01:48] Lucie: Can I just, so there were, Fuma and Mooriben already had women’s groups that were organised?

[00:01:53] Moustapha: Yes, exactly.

[00:01:54] Lucie: Okay.

[00:01:54] Moustapha: But they were not having any processing activities. They were just in the production side, and that’s it. After, at the harvest, they were just sitting down in the village. There is no any activity. So then we came with the idea to see how we can get a linkage to have quality grain that can be processed by urban processors for urban market. Everything came from that.

Then, because when we have started those work on the other way, like the economists always say that there is no market in the rural area, so you just have to get the crude grain and get more value in the cities. So we had that conception.

[00:02:43] Lucie: Okay. Yeah.

[00:02:44] Moustapha: And then, we have started to work on those quality grain, how we can get them, how we can contract with the farmers group to supply the urban processors. That’s how we started.

Then during those activities, we decided to bring some thrashers from the cities, mechanized thrashers, and also some plastic and some other items, accessory that can help those women.

[00:03:15] Lucie: The rural women.

[00:03:17] Moustapha: The rural women to get the grain. And in one of those debriefing meeting, just after a visit and work with the group, they say, no, but why do you want to just get the grain and bring them in the cities? We would rather stop with the grain here and show them how they can add more value to the grain in the village.

So then we have started to myself, because I was really excited and I was very resistant to the thinking of the economists. I said, no, I have to come to those village to show them how to process products as we have done it for the past 10 years for the urban women.

[00:04:11] Lucie: And this was something that already existed in the urban context.

[00:04:13] Moustapha: In the urban.

[00:04:14] Lucie: Okay. Right.

[00:04:14] Moustapha: They have market, but they don’t have supply, consistent supply of grain, good grain, improved varieties, clean grain, you see? So that’s how the things, so we have to get that link with the farmers. Coming to the farmer side, we met those women that were farmers. They produce seed, grain, and they say, no, but you have to show us how to process the product in the village.

So when I went back to the city, the economist and the other stakeholders said, no, no, no, no, no, this is not going to work, Moustapha, they don’t have money to buy the product. You will just waste your time. I said, no, that’s what they said, I have to go and see what will come out from that.

[00:05:00] Lucie: Okay.

[00:05:00] Moustapha: So all the people were sure that it is not going to function except myself.

[00:05:08] Lucie: And I’m really glad that you are highlighting that. That, you know, you went against the currents to say no, my colleagues that you are working with in the villages, this is what they want. I believe that we can do something.

[00:05:18] Moustapha: Yes. And the economists with a lot of publish data thinks they told me that, no, they don’t have incomes, how can they buy it? We are not going to follow you in that things. So then I just say, okay, I will do the adventure alone with my team.

[00:05:33] Gabi: So they didn’t, they didn’t support you.

[00:05:34] Moustapha: They didn’t support it. They were against it from the research side. They said, no, this is not going to work.

[00:05:41] Lucie: So innovation takes some courage.

[00:05:44] Moustapha: But I just listened to the woman, listened to the farmers, and I say, okay. So then, I had a proposal, a short proposal for that thrashing with Bruce, and we presented it to UNDP.

[00:06:00] Lucie: What ways to get out the grain?

[00:06:02] Moustapha: To get out the grain and also process some of them in the village.

[00:06:06] Lucie: What sort of processing then?

[00:06:07] Moustapha: Just to go to flour.

[00:06:10] Lucie: Okay.

[00:06:10] Moustapha: And get also a secondary product that can be value.

[00:06:16] Lucie: Yeah.

[00:06:16] Moustapha: Like, uh, couscous, dèguè and some other product. You see, we’re not thinking about nutrition at that time. But just to go to secondary product from the grain, so that can give them incomes

[00:06:30] Lucie: Exactly. You’re thinking in terms of revenue at that point.

[00:06:32] Moustapha: In terms of revenue and also secondary product that they can sell in the market, just to see how the market will behave because all the economists in the city say that it is not going to work.

[00:06:45] Gabi: Was it the idea that probably people in the countryside would just do the processing at their place, and so they don’t need to buy from the market because it’s something that everybody does in their homes without the mentality you had to change.

[00:07:02] Moustapha: Exactly, to change, you see. So then we just go and showed that short proposal, we couldn’t get that funding at that time, they don’t have call. And just as I have mentioned, by chance, I got to hear about the McKnight Foundation, I used Google and I saw the page, and the call.

[00:07:22] Lucie: Okay.

[00:07:23] Moustapha: And then I proposed that to the McKnight.

[00:07:25] Lucie: And you proposed it as a project to increase the revenue?

[00:07:28] Moustapha: Yes. To increase the revenue.

[00:07:29] Lucie: Okay.

[00:07:29] Moustapha: Exactly.

[00:07:30] Lucie: Interesting.

[00:07:30] Moustapha: That was my first two years proposal of McKnight. It was in 2009.

[00:07:36] Gabi: Okay. And how about the market? What did you know about the markets in the countryside that could have a potential for these products, for women to sell this product? Did you have an idea at the time?

[00:07:50] Moustapha: At that time, my thinking was just like the rural market, they have weekly market every week in the village, there is the market. So I was saying, okay, they can test it in those market and also do some proximity sales. They may have some ceremony, like wedding ceremony, naming, and some events, and those product could be like exotic product in the village, though they are from the local grain, but the couscous, they will see, and also the dèguè dèguè is, uh, this granulated millet that was taken with milk.

So accidentally, I noticed that they didn’t know that product, like that dèguè. It was the first time and they didn’t know that their millet can have it. And they like the product, you see?

[00:08:45] Gabi: So there was also discovery about this product, for them. So it’s not something that local it’s used to.

[00:08:51] Moustapha: It’s used in the cities, only the city. Yes. But in the villages through the project that we get the chance to transfer a product made from millet in the cities that have market in those village. Then they discover it and they have already the raw grain that can do it. And they have started to do it in those village.

[00:09:13] Gabi: So they have their raw products.

[00:09:15] Moustapha: Yes, exactly.

[00:09:16] Lucie: But it’s interesting that despite these women being part of farmer federations they still hadn’t yet had the experience of tasting and seeing how…

[00:09:24] Moustapha: Yes, they have never done it, yes. So it’s through this project when we got the funding, we have started it and we set centres in Tera, one in Falwel, one in Maradi. Then we have started, and is a kind of platform, they come and express their knowledge and they bring in all the, at the harvest, they grind the varieties they get from the option of production, they bring them in the centres, we have a decorticator, a milling machine, trashing equipment and some other equipment for roasting.

[00:09:55] Lucie: And in the project then, one aspect of the project was to give the villages these machines.

[00:10:02] Moustapha: Exactly, is to give the machine, come and give the training, like food safety, and also learn from them. So then we say, okay, they have to bring in their local product. All those ancestral product like bibida and some other product came into existence through that dynamic going on around the centres.

[00:10:22] Lucie: Exactly. So how did you decide what food stuffs to transform?

[00:10:26] Moustapha: We started with millet, then sorghum, then the integration of legumes like peanut, cow pea, and also the leaves like moringa and some other crops that have high nutrient content that they produce in their garden.

[00:10:42] Lucie: Go on Gabi.

[00:10:42] Gabi: Well, I have two questions. One is like, so whether there were new products that they started to plant, maybe there were something that, they had grains, but maybe not all the products.

[00:10:55] Moustapha: Yes, exactly.

[00:10:56] Gabi: But then when we have, after, I wanted to get into understanding the process of co-creation. Because there was the co-learning, where you said, we learned from them, they learned from us.

[00:11:10] Lucie: My question was quite specific within that, which is, so with these new crops and legumes you mentioned and leafy vegetables, was that the women who wanted to suggest it? They said, you know, we have these foods, we like them.

[00:11:22] Moustapha: Like there are some of those crops, they’re the one suggesting them because they grow them, and if we can help them to process them and use them. Then we also have some initial knowledge, like about moringa, that the iron and zinc content are very high, protein is high in it, the fiber content, you see? So it came out to do some testing, formulation, that we also map in the lab to see the profile of those contents, and match it to the test of the community by doing this participatory sensory evaluation.

[00:12:00] Lucie: So when people taste the different products to see, they give the feedback advice.

[00:12:05] Moustapha: And then we came out with formulas with specific varieties, specific leaves, other ingredients, without adding any premix. All is local, either from the garden or the farm.

[00:12:17] Lucie: Wow.

[00:12:18] Moustapha: Then with the time we come in with the option, agroecological production, to see also how they will react to those products. If we use them, it was combination. So we started with the conventional grain. Then we move with the option they are already having in place through some other project.

[00:12:42] Lucie: So different varieties of a grain?

[00:12:44] Moustapha: Yes. Different varieties that grow under agroecological condition.

[00:12:48] Lucie: Okay. So they’re not using sort of, they’re using biopesticides or they’re using biofertilisers.

[00:12:52] Moustapha: Seed ball, organic manure, and so on and so on.

[00:12:56] Lucie: And are those varieties of grain, I think you mentioned that they come from other research projects. So are they perhaps also more resistant to climate change?

[00:13:03] Moustapha: Yes, exactly, resistant to stress, from other projects.

[00:13:07] Lucie: Resistant to stress from the climate.

[00:13:09] Moustapha: Exactly. Yeah, from the climate. Exactly. So then we tested all those varieties with them and they see the option. And we came out with also their concern about the health.

[00:13:20] Lucie: Not only of their children, but of other members in the family.

[00:13:23] Moustapha: Yes, exactly.

[00:13:24] Lucie: Of the community.

[00:13:24] Moustapha: So that’s how all the work started. They know like the use of some of those ingredients and how to use them in the community. With that co-creation, it alert them to go into deeply in the testing. Just like if we take the recycling part, like if you take the peanut.

[00:13:47] Lucie: The shell?

[00:13:48] Moustapha: The shell. So that shell, they use it for the roasting of the millet. For the roasting of the peanut.

[00:13:55] Lucie: Ah, great.

[00:13:56] Moustapha: In place of wood. And it’s very efficient, it give a very good to torrefaction.

[00:14:02] Lucie: Yeah.

[00:14:02] Moustapha: The quality, and they have less pollution, and they use less wood. And the bran also, they produce from the grain after the decortication, that bran from the centres, they feed their animals like the goat, which produce very good milk that they also sell and give to their children.

[00:14:22] Lucie: And so here we’re seeing the cycles.

[00:14:25] Moustapha: Yeah, yes, exactly.

[00:14:26] Gabi: I’m very intrigued about this exchange. So it seems that there is knowledge that it’s present. And then you brought some knowledge. Can you tell us how you bring it together? What kind of processes? How do you exchange and how do you come in with new, how do you come into new knowledge? ‘Cause you have to combine it, they have maybe the raw products or they, like, oh, I know I can use the shell of the peanuts to burn. But then you have to combine the knowledge that also comes from outside, what you were bringing. How is that process working?

[00:15:01] Moustapha: Yeah. The combination is really, as we do it, is through, like the visit we do. Sometimes they do things before we come.

[00:15:10] Lucie: Yes. That’s very good point.

[00:15:12] Moustapha: Before we we come, they do the things.

[00:15:13] Lucie: They’re not waiting for the researcher to come and discuss, they innovate themselves.

[00:15:17] Moustapha: That’s what we did before you come to the village. We produce this, we produce that. And how do you think about it? Sometimes is a new product.

[00:15:26] Lucie: So the researchers on their side, they start working and innovating.

[00:15:29] Moustapha: Exactly. And they show the product.

[00:15:30] Lucie: And then the women in the villages also there, of course, not just waiting for new ideas.

[00:15:34] Moustapha: So they have like a sharing of information. They don’t wait for us to do things. Even the management of the incomes, they have a way of managing. So when we come, they say, okay, that’s what we decide.

So, so percentage of the incomes is going to support the operation. So, so percentage every month there is a member of our group that have a ceremony, like naming ceremony, so we support to do this. This part is going to the school to support, like the feeding school. We do some activities, like that snack, they decide to produce some part that they send to the school.

[00:16:15] Lucie: Wow.

[00:16:16] Moustapha: And the children buy it at the break of 10 o’clock.

[00:16:19] Lucie: And it’s a healthy snack.

[00:16:20] Moustapha: It’s healthy, and they don’t buy sweet.

[00:16:23] Lucie: Exactly, yeah.

[00:16:24] Moustapha: You see, because there were some children that even refuse to go to be in the school, primary school, where they don’t have that snack.

[00:16:35] Gabi: So much they liked it. So that was the selecting…

[00:16:38] Moustapha: Yes, some parents say that their children say no, if there is no that snack in that school, they’re not going to go in that school. So there are so many indirect impact of those things that is happening. So they inform us about those and how we think, how we can channel them or follow it up efficiently.

[00:17:02] Lucie: That’s absolutely fascinating to hear how the different aspects are coming in. I’m wondering about timelines, ’cause initially you mentioned there was sort of a two year project when you bought machinery.

[00:17:13] Moustapha: Yes. Everything started with that.

[00:17:14] Lucie: Okay.

[00:17:14] Moustapha: Now we’re at around 15 years.

[00:17:16] Lucie: But what are some of the steps between that two years and then in 15 years?

[00:17:21] Moustapha: Okay. The step is too long.

[00:17:24] Lucie: Okay then just one.

[00:17:25] Moustapha: The one is really the sharing of information among the women to share the knowledge and the dynamic. It brought us to the creation of secondary centres and tertiary centres.

[00:17:38] Lucie: You are going like, you’ve jumped years.

[00:17:41] Moustapha: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:17:41] Lucie: Okay. I would like to know when did the first centre start perhaps? How long did it take? So how many years since your first project, or since the beginning of the project?

[00:17:50] Moustapha: I can say almost 15 years now because that call, we had it in 2009. The project potentially started in 2010.

[00:18:00] Lucie: Okay.

[00:18:00] Moustapha: And it was just two years, and it was only in Niger.

[00:18:04] Lucie: When was there the first sort of physical or where did the machines go?

[00:18:07] Moustapha: The machine went to Tera, Falwel and Maradi.

[00:18:11] Lucie: Individual people’s houses?

[00:18:13] Moustapha: No, no, no, no, we had to create centres. Then to get that centres we have to get compromise with the farmers. We have to get the compromise, where to set the centres and to which will belong the space. It has to be a public place belonging to the union. And then who and who can manage it. So we have to get an agreement about all those aspects. Before we set the centres.

[00:18:43] Lucie: And this is what I find really interesting ’cause you’ve just mentioned some of the difficulties, you know, of trying to work with the community, the different people, to make sure that…

[00:18:51] Moustapha: We first started with the farmer union in Mooriben and Fuma Gaskya, like the president of the union in the village. Then the information went up to the head of the Federation in Niamey and in Maradi. And then there was a front and back communication. Then they came, we visit together, the site, we had a meeting together, the objective of the centres and how it is going to operate. How can the member adhere to the centres? And so on and so on.

[00:19:25] Lucie: And I think that lots of other projects, they don’t make use of what is already there.

[00:19:30] Moustapha: Yes, exactly.

[00:19:31] Lucie: Your knowledge of, well, you know, there’s lots of structures already in place that if we can work with those, it will smoothen it, even though it is still going to be a long journey, and needing lots of discussions and meetings.

[00:19:41] Moustapha: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yes. So then you see, we had to get that agreement together and they contribute. Like I remember even for the building of the centres, the individual farmers contribute, like they brought some concrete block, some bring some like sand, everybody brought what they can.

[00:20:01] Lucie: And so they’re all very, very involved.

[00:20:03] Moustapha: Yes, or the labour, they contribute in the building, the men, farmers come, they work and everybody contribute beside the contribution of the project. So everything started like that. Then the project set the equipment and we start the training, the front and back work.

[00:20:24] Lucie: Front and back work. What does that mean?

[00:20:25] Moustapha: Like, what I have just mentioned, they do the work, when we come they present to us and sometimes we bring some piece of modules for training, like, how to process this, how to process that, how to use this equipment, how to use that equipment, and also if we have varieties from the breeders, improved varieties. So sometimes we present those varieties to them, they grow the varieties, at the harvest we come together, we do the evaluation from the grain to the product. And everybody will give his feedback about the preference, the test, and so on. So everything is really been done collectively, and the result is out of consensus. And then they start to use those varieties.

[00:21:13] Lucie: Okay, can I ask one last question?

[00:21:14] Moustapha: Yes.

[00:21:15] Lucie: Have there been challenges with consensus?

[00:21:19] Moustapha: Sometimes it is obvious. Because it is a product everybody will test and give his feedback. And with your help, the statistical analysis we came out with what product is preferred at which extent, and then we go and use that product. So you see, so this is the contribution of the science, that when we come back to the product, we see the result.

I remember in some of those village for the fortified product, after all those selection, we came out with the best share one. And the children, the children in the village, they don’t even wait their parents to prepare the porridge. They just start to eat the flour.

[00:22:07] Lucie: That’s a sure indication of success!

[00:22:09] Moustapha: Yes. It’s so sweet. Well, they don’t like the one from Misola and PAM, the World Food Programme [PAM, Programme Alimentaire Mondial in French], they brought some flour made with soybeans, maize, which are not actually adapted.

[00:22:23] Lucie: Not as tasty as yours.

[00:22:24] Moustapha: Yes. Yes.

[00:22:25] Gabi: One last thing, this makes me think of something that Hourey mentioned recently that she feels that really it’s becoming a family.

[00:22:33] Moustapha: Yes.

[00:22:33] Gabi: And I want to know what it is for you also. Does it feel like now, after many years, you really built, besides like the technical skills and a good strategy of work, but that feeling of trust and family?

[00:22:48] Moustapha: Yeah. So actually I, yeah, I think all this is really the confidence of the success that bring trust among them. They’re very confident. And if you have a child that was like very malnourished and you know that the product they gave you, that flour saved that child, you share the information to other women.

Immediately when you see a malnourished children in some village, even if it is not your village, when you travel because they travel to go to market, to ceremony, they’ll just direct that children, you’ll say, oh, we have a centres, and they’ll just give the number of like, go to that woman, this child is going to be saved. It is just like a tools that they have.

[00:23:37] Gabi: Yeah. But it changes also the fabric of the society, slowly. The social side is beautiful.

[00:23:44] Moustapha: Yes, it is. Really. And even that fact of sharing and wanting to share with other women is due to the fact that they know that the opportunity is so big and they cannot satisfy all the village beside their village. Like if we take in Niger, we have about 13 to 14,000 villages. So they know that there is no way for them to produce, process, and satisfy all those village. But all those village have the same challenges they have.

So then they want to invite the women to come and learn. They give them some kits of the product, like some grain and all those ingredients, they show them how to do it and they say, okay, go and demonstrate in your village. And sometimes when they start, if they don’t have like equipment, like decorticator, milling machine, they say, okay, you when you just prepare your grain, because they produce the grain in their village, so just bring your grain and use our decorticator. You see?

So those are the tertiary centres. They have just a small kit, some accessory. Then they start. But they need at some point to come back to the other village that have the primary centre or secondary centres to do the flour.

[00:24:58] Gabi: And so there is also that connection.

[00:25:00] Moustapha: Very interconnected and very ready to share their knowledge. No jealousy. In the city, the processors in the cities, they’re very jealous of sharing the information because they are fearing to lose the market.

[00:25:16] Gabi: Sure, sure.

[00:25:16] Moustapha: You see, so they say, no, I will not show you. But in the village is not like that.

[00:25:21] Lucie: Because it’s that human benefit.

[00:25:23] Moustapha: And also the people to satisfy is very huge.

[00:25:27] Gabi: So there’s no competition.

[00:25:28] Moustapha: And anybody that produce will sell in his village. And then you also train the next village. They will also do the produce in the next village. Next village, next village, next village. You see? So it is a very small dynamic where that can span slowly in a village. The need is there.

[00:25:49] Gabi: But it’s also beautiful, the exchange of knowledge. Cause they bring their own knowledge, it comes with each seed as a knowledge. It’s not only the seed is knowledge, but about the terrain, about soil, about how it’s grown.

[00:26:02] Moustapha: And they’re very happy.

[00:26:03] Gabi: Yeah.

[00:26:04] Moustapha: And when they learn. I remember one year we were just training about the varieties and one of the women discovered the first time a varieties that is completely yellow, millet, the flour is just like maize. And that is related to the varieties. And she was very excited to discover it for the first time, because the type of millet she’s used to is white dark, not so yellow as maize.

[00:26:34] Lucie: So these centres are an opportunity for new knowledge as well.

[00:26:37] Moustapha: Yes. Also the diversity and what the research also is doing with all this breeding to bring out new things.

[00:26:45] Lucie: Moustapha, I’m aware that you have a flight very soon. So I think this is perhaps a nice place to stop so that you perhaps have a couple of minutes to get your bag at least.

[00:26:53] Moustapha: Yeah.

[00:26:54] Lucie: Thank you so much Gabi and Moustapha.

[00:26:56] Moustapha: I think this to me can be part of best practice.

[00:27:03] Lucie: Yeah.

[00:27:04] Moustapha: That should be shared.

[00:27:05] Lucie: And this is why we’re trying to start recording this.

[00:27:07] Moustapha: Yes. The communication strategy.

[00:27:09] Lucie: Yeah.

[00:27:10] Gabi: Yeah.

[00:27:10] Moustapha: Thank you so much also.