150 – Building Impactful Teams in West Africa

David: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to the IDEMS Podcast. I’m David Stern, a founding director of IDEMS, and it’s my privilege today to be with Professor Baoua again for our second episode together. We had a recent episode where he told us about the long history he’s had working on Millet Head Miner. And we said in that episode that we would have another episode where we would go into the details of the team he has built.

Baoua, welcome. 

Prof Baoua: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here.  

So, I use also McKnight Funds since 2006 to build our team, because when it starts, we have one entomologist in Niger, one in Burkina Faso, and one in Mali. So we have many, many work to do. And we work together and we understand. So we have a little money, so we have to work with [00:01:00] this the best we can. But the problem is how to, well, we say ourself, okay, no salary.

So we have to build our system using students. So, you know, students, if you have a student, PhD students by example. So we have the people who want to progress. We need publication, we need to be in the team. So we took PhD students and around this PhD student we can have masters working on some of this.

And around this master we can have also some bachelor. So at our university we have a kind of stage people for application, what we can say, practical impact. So, we need to go for three months, six months working in a team. So this system help us to work to have more people. Because in my laboratory, when I start, I don’t have any technicians.

And the money we get from Foundation, we say we have to use it to pay some [00:02:00] allowance to our students, to help them. But really having a salary is not possible. So we work, continue working. So we have people who come and work with us for practical part of their training. So we use them and we did a very good job there. 

David: I observed this when I first interacted with you. This was back over 10 years ago now. And I was astounded at already, then, the way you had this pyramid of students where you had your doctoral students, at that point, I don’t think you had many postdocs, people who’d finished the doctorate there, but you had your doctoral students helping the master students, being part of their supervision, you had the master students being part of the supervision of the Bachelor students, and it meant you had this immense number of students, which was unimaginable for other projects.

And it’s this thing, which I’ve mentioned in other cases, and I’ve learned so much from observing people like yourself, [00:03:00] seeing constraints as opportunity. In your environment, you had a manpower constraint, there weren’t the people there to do the work. And you turned that constraint into your greatest strength.

Because now, the people who you trained like that, they’re becoming experts. They’re becoming well known. They’re getting employed by universities across the countries, the three countries. They’re getting employed in the National Agricultural Research Centers, and you have this immense team of people who have gone through all with this same mentality of how to build teams, how to use the students, as part of their education, to get the real experience as part of these really important projects. 

Prof Baoua: So I think this helped very much because we bring the team and now, I think the laboratory have a good capacity, human [00:04:00] capacity. And this also, we did it with the support of the community of practice, because as a community we have everything. You know, as you remember, many, many times we work for writing paper, for analysis, for some learning some new tools for map of our survey. So we have a good support from the foundation grant for our community. 

And also, what I can say, so I start as entomologist. I know just the pest. And also entomology being something very different. So now we have acarologist, we have social scientists, specialist on entomology, we have extension people, we have so many. 

And now we know the last generation. So we have entomology as a food, because at the beginning we are here to just killing the insects. Now we are working on enhancing the diversity. And now we have the project of soldier fly. 

David: [00:05:00] Black Soldier fly. 

Prof Baoua: Black Soldier Fly. 

David: I’ve been hearing about it. 

Prof Baoua: It’s unique problem. But initially I want to work for killing insects. So now we turn it entomology work. We’ll see what is opportunity and using insects and natural resource to control. So to enhance, to increase the diversity. 

And now that is the last part, we have black soldier flies. So how to use it for feeding people, because we can use it for assainissement. 

David: Sorry, so that’s for actually using waste products from the agricultural process or from your food waste. 

Prof Baoua: Using it for compost. 

David: Exactly. 

Prof Baoua: And we using also for fertilizer and use it for feeding animal, chicken and fish. So, a good aspect. So, team was, well, many, many people and now many, many specialists. And now I think entomology starts to be science who can do many, many things for people. 

David: I want to come back to where you started, [00:06:00] which was when you started on this journey in the three countries, there was literally a handful of people. Now you probably can’t count the number of people in the three countries. And a lot of them have gone through your labs, either in Niger, in Burkina, or in Mali.

And it’s just incredible how you go from university to university. There’s been explosion of universities in all three countries, and all of them are benefiting from the students that have gone through your labs. Again, it’s amazing to turn these constraints into the opportunities.

Prof Baoua: Yep. 

David: And it’s the fact that you now have this network of people who have gone through this experience of doing things locally. And again, I come back to a point which we made before, that a huge part of your success was you focused on local resources, you focused on being really cost [00:07:00] effective. 

So you didn’t bring in fancy machines from outside, you focused on using the local resources, which meant that your students, when they went to a remote university and they were employed somewhere else without any laboratory materials, it didn’t matter. They can carry on their work because they can use local resources themselves. 

And it’s an incredible achievement to have not only had the impact you’ve had on protecting farmers from millet head miner, you know, as we discussed in the previous episode, but also to just building the human resource of these countries.

And of all the projects we’ve supported, you’ve mentioned how we’ve been able to support your teams in different ways, but it’s been such a privilege to be learning from how change really happens, because it is not just been change in terms of your impact, its [00:08:00] institutional change. 

I’ve seen you go from the national research institution to one of the universities. I’ve seen you navigate the politics of that and to make sure that the role you played at the National Research Institution wasn’t lost. One of your former students in some sense, has taken over your lab there and is running it very well. 

So that national research institution hasn’t lost that institutional capacity with you leaving, you’ve managed to hand that over to the next generation. And in the university, this gave you access to students at a different level again. That whole process you’ve been through has been extremely thoughtful, and I just want you to again say something about how you’ve thought about this institution building component as well as the capacity building component.

Prof Baoua: And also another aspect, so, when we leave [00:09:00] public institution while working, so I have some concept, because one of the problem I have is extension work, how to bring this technology to people. And for that, some of my student, we have a kind of bureau. 

David: An NGO.

Prof Baoua: An NGO, like NGO, working now for extension about agroecology. 

David: Exactly. 

Prof Baoua: Now we are working at level of 200 villages in three region, four region of Niger. And now we have demonstration plots and we have private units working. So now we convince people, biological control is a reality for people, biopesticides also, and seed also, we are working on seed. So we help people, we try to extend agroecological concept, compost also people agree with. 

David: Well, let me see if I can articulate part of that journey. As you said, part of it is alongside the public institutions, you’ve now got the NGO supporting it. You’ve got these private [00:10:00] units within the farmer federations. So you’ve got all these different entities collaborating, working together.

But achieving that, part of it was coming back to what you said at the beginning. When you started, you got this finance and you were thinking, how can you most cost effectively use that money? And the way you’ve done that meant that this particular project has carried on for 20 years because the value you’ve brought, the impact you’ve done, the way you’ve evolved has meant you’ve been continually valued within the community.

But more than that, I believe now the funding from McKnight is a very small part of the other fundings you now get. You actually get more money from other sources. But it doesn’t play the same role. You know the team you built is so big now you need these other funds to be able to achieve all the different things.

But it’s the McKnight Fund, which has [00:11:00] sort of been your constant companion. You could say. 

Prof Baoua: I have another donation after all the success. So one starting working with McKnight. So we start and we have some results. And this bring us in international place. And where after that, the team we have in Niger, Burkina Faso also, we start working with USAID project legume lab for millet and cowpea. We are involved together, so to work on this, give us additional funds for working. 

After that, so in 2008 I think, we have another project from Bill Gates Foundation, University Purdue for work on storage. So we as a part of the team for developing PICS bag for storage because safe storage to sell pesticide. In Burkina and in Niger we work together and now we have this project and for community study, to demonstrate that we can use PICS bags for [00:12:00] 12 crops. And now it’s a technology working also. 

So after that we have many, many opportunity coming to us. And took everything around the crop protection, and we develop many, many, many things. So we start with exploitation, but after that, we have a reputation of people coming to us, and we did a very good job, some complimentary and also synergic use of funds, so we built a many, many research in term of technology development and in term also for capacity building, laboratory building, because now we have really the laboratory rearing insects, we working with many, many people. So very, very interesting. This is another aspect of our success.

David: Yes. 

Prof Baoua: Because where we start here, but many, many people join us and we try to have a good synergy. 

David: And just to, again, for your personal journey, this did start with McKnight. McKnight was [00:13:00] your break. This was the first funding that you got. 

Prof Baoua: Yeah. This is another aspect. We have a team working with many, many partner. 

David: And I think, McKnight being the first, McKnight was your first big break and when you’ve had these other opportunities, I’ve seen the way you kept McKnight as a source of innovation. In many ways, it’s given you the space to evolve, to push yourself, to go beyond. 

Because a lot of the other funding you’ve had to deliver on what they want or what’s needed for that funding. Whereas with the CRFS funding, which was formerly CCRP, you’ve been given the space to say, well, what needs to be done and have that long-term approach.

Prof Baoua: Yeah. Yeah. We have this capacity building, and we have also a visit from the foundation in our country when it was possible, we have a regular zoom meeting. 

David: And it’s been really, for me anyway, it’s been fascinating to see how your [00:14:00] project is one of the ones where, as you say, we’ve given specific pieces of support. But we’ve very rarely given the same piece of support twice, because as soon as we’ve supported one member of your team, ODK, for example. We mentioned this as something where when you first saw it, you then took it and you ran with it. We then didn’t support anyone in your team. You made sure everyone in your team was using it. 

And this has been why it’s been such a powerful collaboration that we can therefore be helping you to innovate, helping you to take that next step, to challenge you in some sense to go beyond your entomologist background into the social sciences. And that mutual stimulation has been extremely, I think, beneficial to the community and the role you’ve played in building this community is immense. 

In French, they call you Le Doyen, which is like the dean. You are the… 

Prof Baoua: And [00:15:00] I think I changed, I have a chance to meet good people in my student. So we have really fantastic serious people. We are very engaged in the development of our country. I had the chance, I think I have good collaborator. I don’t remember a time we have a problem with one student or not. Everything is very cool, is well doing. 

David: But this is, this is about making your own luck in that way. You’ve had this amazing pyramid and you’ve had a really concrete way of actually making sure that those who are serious, those who work well, who engaged, you give them the opportunity to grow. And you’ve done that, you know, it’s been an inspiration for me. I’ve been involved in capacity building across the continent, you know, maybe in East Africa more than West Africa, but I’m now trying. 

But you are one of my inspirations on this. And how using the funds we have well can enable that capacity to build and to build institutions. It’s been inspirational watching on this. [00:16:00] 

But I do want to finish by saying what’s next and you know, where are you going? 

Prof Baoua: I think we work now, we establish a team at each country. We have young scientists now, I am a part of the first generation of scientists, but we have now a second generation who is in business in the laboratory for work. But we need help to continue working because, you know, now I think the effect of climate change very, very, so we have more insects, so they need to work again together. And I think, the private units need also help.

But when we start, it’s just a place. But now we have to build something very consistent, very sustainable. So they need help to bring more technology to them, to bring more equipment. So to help now I think our technology, we cover at least 20%, 30% of [00:17:00] millet growing area.

David: Incredible. 

Prof Baoua: I think we have to go, to do more. And we have many, many data, we have to work on model who can help us explain our good results. Also for prevision, forecasting, something we can interact with, from organization for identification of insects, for early control of pest, some forecast, you understand me? 

David: I understand you well. 

Prof Baoua: You have to go with some electronic tools and some application to make our work more effective and also to involve many, many people at each level. 

David: Yeah. 

Prof Baoua: So I think, also for botanical insecticide, I think we have now to look again if we can have that. And my dream is to find some plants we can use, we can grow, to give a chance of local business to grow this plant and to [00:18:00] use it for a local, a hundred percent insecticide made in West Africa, something like that. So what I think it’s good for us now.

David: Yeah. Well, the modelling, of course, you’re speaking my language. We are obviously here to collaborate on that and I look forward to, we have some discussions already ongoing about where we could start. And I really look forward to maybe in six months or a year time doing another episode sharing where we are getting to on the modelling. Because I think it is something where the opportunities to contribute in your context with technologies that get homegrown, we now have teams locally that I think are involved in some of this work. So I’m really optimistic about that. 

And I guess I’d like to finish really by, once again, just repeating my admiration, and how [00:19:00] much your approach to capacity building has inspired me. And just giving you the opportunity to maybe finish, by saying you’ve seen many of the other projects have taken different approaches to yours, whether they be within McKnight or in other contexts. Do you have something to share if anyone is thinking about building their team? What are the things which you could finish by saying, which might help a young researcher who’s getting their first grant? What should they think about? 

Prof Baoua: Okay. I think, since I start everything for me with McKnight, and we have do good work. When you see entomology in Europe, it’s different, entomology for agriculture in America, in Russia, anything, you know, is different. We don’t have the same context, so we have to work in entomology in [00:20:00] Africa. And what we are doing is different. So you are a scientist, we are here, we have to work for our people, we have to work for the interest of our people. We have to be passion and you know the problem we have, have many dimension, so we have to work with many people. 

At the beginning entomologists have to look for insects. Then they look how to work for soils. But now we are working together. So you have to be open to all the discipline and to work and we have to exchange also for we scientists anywhere in the world, America, American North, in South America, in Europe, so you have to exchange, even Africa, West or East Africa, if you have the opportunity South Africa. North part of Africa. So we have to exchange to see what we can get good and how we can adapt it. 

And also in Africa, our system, we have to look behind you to help [00:21:00] young sister coming. Crowd share application for practical work for people for agricultural college is very, very interesting. So, we have to look, especially in our case, we have to look and we have to help them to build their own career also.

David: Let me just summarize what I’ve heard. You’ve got to be patient, you’ve got to build the capacity of others behind you to become part of your networks, and you’ve got to collaborate across discipline, across countries. But you are not looking to replicate what is happening as elsewhere. You are looking to find ways to make it locally adapted, to make it really relevant and embedded in the local cultural context, but not just cultural, the realities of your context. That’s what I’ve heard. Incredibly valuable advice. 

Prof Baoua: And I think the quality of the training we have throughout McKnight system [00:22:00] and over partner here. I think they have up to 10 PhD, but these people are performing very well, as the people train in some developed country. Because the training is of reality and we have good quality publication. 

And me, I started the system just after my PhD, 10 years, I don’t do anything because of our institutes, but when I started working here, now I am at the top of my career in university because the work I do helped me attain good technical file, good publication. So I think something we have to learn and try to duplicate anywhere. 

David: Let me just draw out that last point if I’ve understood it correctly. Because one of the things you are saying about the success is the success needs to be multidimensional. You need to be focusing on impact and on the local context. But actually the fact that you are finding that success within local institutions, but it’s [00:23:00] international level of success. So it really is building that research profile, the quality of your research is, you know, internationally recognized. 

Having that combination is hard. And I have so much admiration for how you’ve managed to do this. And I would like to just say one last thing from a personal aspect. I’ve had many students who I’ve helped to get international opportunities and I’ve had some students who I’ve managed to supervise within African contexts and support them in their local institution.

And what I found really interesting is those who go out, when they come back, culturally, it is difficult for them to reintegrate. Those who develop as you have done in the local institutions, it’s much easier for them to succeed within the institutions because they built, especially if they’re doing high quality work, they built those competencies within those institutions that they are now embedded within. [00:24:00] 

And so I love this advice that you are giving. You know, let’s get those high quality PhDs in local institutions, and I think that’s great advice. Having international visits to go and see other things, great, that’s part of that education. But let’s see if we can embed those high quality PhDs in the local systems.

Thank you so much, always an inspiration. 

Prof Baoua: And McKnight help found the community and the resource we have, for training very well. 

David: Absolutely. I really appreciate that we have a role in providing that support. And this is so rare. I wish more funders would do this, would actually not just think about giving the money, but creating the environment for success.

Prof Baoua: Yeah. I think McKnight concept is the best I’ve ever seen since 20 year ago when we start. So we have something, inclusivity, cooperation, many, many things, [00:25:00] independence through local, resource something like that, involving farmers in the research. So everything, they have something, some value for the work, and, it help. 

And we have many, many challenge come, you have covid is coming. We have work together and now we have insecurity, everything is working because here in Maradi in Niger, I can’t go in Tera, but I have people working in Tera doing what we have to do. So very, very interesting. We did many, many years together in our community. So we deliver too, we train people, we give responsibility and people, everybody is happy. 

I think the way working and regional team of people helping. Very, very, very good. And now we have a special team. We have a good results. Very, very interesting. 

David: What I can say, having the privilege of being both on the ground, working directly with the likes of you, but also sitting with the leadership team in their [00:26:00] meetings, what I can say is that the appreciation is mutual. The respect they have for the work that you are doing specifically, but the whole community and the way that work is happening, the learning is not one way. 

The exchange is a very, is very much two ways. Almost any of the ideas you’ve mentioned, they’ve come from observing what a project is doing and saying that’s good. Can we help others to benefit from this as well? Can we systematize it? Can we build the structures to be able to share that with others? And that cycle of actually observing what works and getting it to then say, okay, well how can this be systematized and sharing it with others and going backwards and forwards.

It’s been a privilege to be part of that. I’ve loved being part of sharing your stories with the leadership and then coming back with the ideas to sort of then share new ideas, new innovations with you. And just very recently you’ve mentioned the modelling. This is something we were engaged in a few [00:27:00] years ago because of the observation that this was needed, and therefore something has been happening for two years to prepare for now the collaboration that hopefully we will embark on over the next few years. 

It is an incredible program to be part of. So thank you again for your time, for sharing your knowledge on this. 

Prof Baoua: Thank you, because it’s a part of something I never say, today I say it with you. I don’t have the time to write it, or the place to write it, but now we have some results here inside. So I think I’m very happy to chat my experience and my thinking with you. 

David: And maybe you’re right, maybe this is something, we should get someone to help us write some of this up because it is so insightful what you’ve done. And as you say, this is not the knowledge of an entomologist. This is the knowledge of an educator. You know, here it is. It is really deep understanding of educational systems, it’s an inspiration. So yeah, let’s get an educator to help us write this up. We’ll send [00:28:00] this to some educators and see if anyone’s interested.

Thank you so much.

Prof Baoua: Thank you very much.