147 – Cultivating Change: Local Solutions for Nutrition

David: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to the IDEMS Podcast. I’m David Stern, a founding director of IDEMS, and it’s my privilege to be today in Burkina Faso with a longtime collaborator from Niger, Moustapha. This is not your first episode with us. About a year ago we were in Mali together and we did an episode. And we’re now together again, and it’s a great privilege to be able to find out more about what’s been happening over the last year. Welcome Moustapha. 

Moustapha: Thank you so much, David. I’m also glad to meet you and all your team today because it has been not so long, last November you were in Niamey, for most of the people is almost a year. And we’re so happy to see you and this is really a community and I think this [00:01:00] gathering is an opportunity for us to have an update, as you just mentioned it, about our activities. 

David: Absolutely. I know we are gonna get real updates through the week as part of this meeting. 

Moustapha: Yes, absolutely. 

David: I feel very privileged to get a little inside scoop on what’s been going on over the last year. Because I know, just over a year ago you won a prize on the sort of cultural aspects related to your work, a lot of your work is around processing foods to be able to improve nutrition in rather difficult situations in Niger. And you’ve done some amazing work there, but you then very recently won this prize related to the cultural aspects of the work. 

Do you want to speak a bit about that? And I’ve not heard what you’ve done. 

Moustapha: Okay. Yeah. Yes, yes. Thank you so much, and I think if you remember, you were at the launching of that project. 

David: It was a privilege to be there. 

Moustapha: And actually, it was amazing because what we had planned as activities for that project [00:02:00] were achieved. 

David: Let me just check, because I remember you had planned things like sort of community presentations of traditional dishes and things like this as part of the cultural heritage actually keeping the cultural heritage. Tell me about that, for example. 

Moustapha: Yeah, exactly. So like for the dishes, before coming to the dishes, I will talk about the grain that give those dishes. So the first activities were during the rainy season of the planting of 2024. The seeds that were grown, most were from the farmer practice, and they have names like you have a seed that is called bubani. Bubani is just like giving health, healing. You see? 

So this was really something that was grown as part of that activities. We have also another seed called nakuwa, nakuwa in Hausa [00:03:00] is for everybody, is a seed that belong to everybody. So during the sowing of those seeds. And the selected sites that were part of that award.

David: This was Tera and Falwell. 

Moustapha: So then we had the planting. And the planting was a kind couple, or I can say integrated to traditional artists that came singing, encouraging the farmers doing the sowing and getting the food from the women while they are sowing. So it was really a kind of cultural activities integrated to the soil. 

David: Did you record some of this? Is this something we’re going to get to see? 

Moustapha: Yeah, yes, yes. We have a lot of recording of those, both in audio and video. And now, right now we’re working on a video that is going to be released very soon, and you will see, [00:04:00] you cannot see everything, but at least the very important part of those events, and the practice. 

David: Can I just check? I mean, part of the reason for this, is this is really traditional, that actually the, the sowing of the seed was a traditional event. 

Moustapha: Yes. Yes. 

David: And so this is really a celebration of that and a remembrance of how this used to be as well. 

Moustapha: Exactly. In the past. So it is a kind of really rehearsing the past practice and way of doing agriculture. And as part of that package, there was also the local solution in term of planting. So everything that were grown was through agroecological techniques, the farmer knowledge were the backbone of that and the peer of that. And integrated with also the knowledge coming [00:05:00] from, as I said, the artists, and also the research was part of that. 

David: Let me just also give for the audience a bit of the context. 

Moustapha: Okay.

David: Because of course, Niger at the moment, politically it’s been, it’s tricky. I mean it is got a blockade, so getting fertilizer is almost impossible, you know, the trade with the South, which was the backbone of the Niger economy has been cut off in many ways. 

Moustapha: Yeah. 

David: And you are now, back to the roots is a necessity in many contexts because, as a country along with Burkina and Mali, there is now a sense of pride in the fact that you are finding your independence in some ways again. But also, really difficult situation where the inputs that used to be available are not available. The trades that used to be happening has been reduced. That’s the current situation.

Moustapha: Yes, exactly. I can say that is really a very big [00:06:00] coincidence of getting that project and event. Because just following the implementation of the project, as you know, we had a difficult situation with the coup and everything was brought down on the country. So it is a kind of lock, lockdown. 

And I think people are thinking that there is no necessity and urgency to get local solution and see with what we have how can we survive without counting on another country. As you know, before, most of the other additional food we get come from Benin, like cassava, maize flour, and so on. And also Nigeria that we used to complement. All those were completely cut off and [00:07:00] the country cannot get any assistance from any place.

So the only solution was really to see how we can survive by using our local knowledge, by solidarity, and get solution from the nature. 

David: And let me just, I know we are deviating and I do want to get back to hearing about the events and this sort of cultural component. 

Moustapha: Yeah.

David: But I do want to just point out, your work, your research, going back over a decade, it’s almost two decades now, has been about this. So you’ve been working on these local solutions anyway. I still remember one of your great successes was these, which I think we mentioned in the last episode, these infantile flours, which you were finding we were able to get the nutritional value and you were able to outperform the imported options. 

Moustapha: Yes. 

David: So this is an area you’ve been working in personally for [00:08:00] a long period of time. 

Moustapha: Yes. 

David: And it just so happens, as you say that, as you were getting recognized for this work, the political situation in the country arrived, which made it even more important, accentuated the value of this approach, going back to self-reliance but using modern techniques, using modern knowledge alongside the traditional knowledge. 

Moustapha: Yes. 

David: So let’s get back now to understand more about, you know, I want to get to the dishes. 

Moustapha: Yes. So, coming to those dishes, just recalling what you have said. I remember last year we had a big gathering in Maradi where the governor attended it, and we even had a representative from McKnight, Batamaka, and some other scientists from Burkina, like Madame Ba and the team, and also some other people came from Niamey. 

So when we presented our activities, the women were there [00:09:00] because they were the ones talking, presenting the product and giving some witness about the impact of their product and how it is changing their life, their community.

I remember the governor, he just smiled and he said this, your project, is ahead of our thoughts because from what I have seen today, it looks like you already have the AES, that is the alliance of Sahel. 

David: Yes, in French. So in English it’s the Alliance of the Sahel States. 

Moustapha: Yeah, exactly. 

David: And in French it’s actually, it becomes the same as AgroEcology for the Sahel.

Moustapha: Exactly, yes. So he was so excited and very, very happy. He said that this is exactly what [00:10:00] we want and what we want to work for, for the coming years. And you already have the way, and you are showing us the way because I was surprised to learn that this project work in Mali in Burkina and in Niger. 

David: Yes. 

Moustapha: And all the work is local agroecological solution. So it was very, very, I think, impressive. And the confidence, like the impacted community, is showing the result that they was so obvious that they are seeing something coming out of this work. 

David: And we’ve had episodes fairly recently about the Global Collaborations for Resilient Food Systems, and our role within it supporting research, and the shift towards trying to actually have that influence at political level, at a level beyond the projects, is something which we are all thinking about. 

Moustapha: Yes, exactly. 

David: And it’s great [00:11:00] that this example you’ve given, and if I’m correct, this was actually organized by Fuma Gaskiya.

Moustapha: Yes. Yes. 

David: This was their caravan. 

Moustapha: Yes. Yes. Exactly. It was during that caravan. 

David: Yes. And basically this is these collaborations which are coming from the different projects. 

Moustapha: Exactly. 

David: Which is so great that it is a real community. This is where we are now together for, the meeting of this community, the yearly meeting. But you still, you keep on getting away from the dishes. I want to hear of these traditional dishes. 

Moustapha: So what the dishes is really, dishes that have a very big potential in term of improving nutrition. So we do an exploration with the local women from Tera, falwell and also that village in Sae Saboua, though they were not part of the award, but with the spillover. And that event we had with the governor, I just thought that is necessary to involve part of that community. 

David: I’m gonna take on a sidetrack again. [00:12:00] Sorry. I want to hear of the dishes. But what you’ve just said is so important, and this is a big part of, I think, the success of your work and of the, well, I suppose the community more generally. This idea that the project was going to do something. But you saw the opportunity and the need to extend to this other site, to recognize their involvement, their engagement and what that brings. 

So stretching to be able to do that because it’s what’s needed, rather than what you said would happen. This highlights the flexibility, but also the engagement that we have in the work that we’re doing. And this is for you in your project but more generally in this. I need to stop sidetracking. The dishes. The dishes. I need to hear about the dishes. 

Moustapha: Yeah. So coming to that, you were talking about the extension and you know, the things just come perfectly and naturally because that funding we get from CRFS to complement the McKnight and work [00:13:00] on the agroecology. 

So we did an exploration with the women, and they came out with more than 40 dishes with potential to improve nutrition because most are made with local grain like sorghum, millet, cowpea, peanut, vegetables, some vegetables, some have some other fruits or some marginal crop with high potential to improve micronutrients, vitamin, and so on.

And they were the one that did that exploration and suggestion as dishes that they want to come, they care, demonstrate, and show to people, and give some history about that. So to do that. They have to also identify the exact women. [00:14:00] They were more than 40, I think, to 50 villages that were part of that exploration. And there are some specific women in those village that were invited to the measure village. Tera invited women from several village, Falwel invited many from several village. I’m sure Hourey can talk about some details about those. 

David: I should just say for our audience. Hourey is a wonderful, she’s really one of the leaders of the Tera situation. Unfortunately, I’ve not been able to visit her and her team for many years because of security situation. But last time I was there, it was incredible their engagement, we’ve continued to interact, and the way they’re thinking beyond themselves is great. She doesn’t speak English, and so it won’t be as easy to do an episode with her, but I’m really glad you’ve mentioned her work, and I look forward to those discussions. 

Moustapha: So then, we get [00:15:00] the food and after the preparation we set a team, a panel. Because it is a kind of competition among the women, and we have to see the best, so that we take like the first rank product that maybe we can more in details to explore them in the lab and also in the future.

David: Can I just give for again, the audience a little bit of details here? Your work over the last 10, 15, 20 years has been to identify ways to improve human nutrition using these local products. So when you’re saying those that win, it is about getting those that have the real potential to improve nutrition using what is already available. 

Moustapha: Exactly, without adding any additives for those food. 

David: Exactly. And it’s this fact that it is looking both in the past because these [00:16:00] dishes existed, this is what you’re trying to identify. 

Moustapha: Exactly. 

David: And it’s about looking forward because there has been, historically in the region, a real push towards importing food, which is less healthy than the food that was present. And so it’s about being able to recognize the value of what was, and what could be. 

Moustapha: Yes, exactly. That was exactly the idea. And there were many very old, old woman in those villages that witnessed during those events that they had less malnutrition in their villages and they are very, very amazed and confused today of the high rate of malnutrition well before they were using those food. 

David: So again, just for context, malnutrition in the region is now a really serious problem. And a lot of interventions haven’t moved the dial on it. And this is where the tendency of having [00:17:00] this imported food has been, I still remember the biscuits, and you know, you replacing them in Burkina with mugudu, and things like this with Madame Ba and that work. And there’s so many initiatives you’ve had, which are trying to sort of say that we have what we need for a good nutrition.

Moustapha: Exactly, yes. That’s exactly what we did. And most of those activities, the health community centers in those location were involved. The nutritionists from those institution and even some came from Niamey from the Ministry of Health, because it is really for them a big opportunities and gates that the McKnight Project opened to them.

Because I remember there was even one medical doctor that when the woman presented some of their products, so he was so smart that he just decided [00:18:00] to buy the product without informing them. He went, he had very, very serious malnourished cases in their community health, and he decided to administer those products. And he has started to see the change on those children. 

Then he called the woman and he told them that you are really, really, really service in this village because I don’t have Plumpy’Nut, that is what they used to get from the ministry. I don’t have flour from Misola, but your product, you know, I decided to buy some without informing you what I’m going to do.

So I had some malnourished children and I decided to administer to them. And after some days, some week, I have still those children [00:19:00] were out of malnutrition. And because of that, I’m going to engage you as, they call them, as farm relay, as women that will come when we have those community activities on nutrition, we will give advice and you will show your product and your formulas to those are women so that they’ll be using it.

David: Again, I need to give a bit of context because you’ve talked about sort of these products, which were being given by the ministry and being provided by the ministry to these communities to help try to address the nutritional issues and were being, as I understand it, almost prescribed by the clinics.

Moustapha: Yes. 

David: The doctors, the health centers were prescribing. 

Moustapha: The director of the community center. 

David: Exactly. And they were prescribing these imported products that were coming to be able to fight the malnutrition issue. When you say [00:20:00] they couldn’t get them, this again is a consequence of the insecurity situation and so on. So it is partly due to the problems that these local solutions are now being elevated. 

Moustapha: Completely. 

David: I want to really reinforce this. This doesn’t always happen. But the fact that you had that long history of work, you’d actually got far enough along that they could provide those products without him making a big deal out of it, that’s what made all of this possible. It’s the long, slow work, and then when the crises happened, other people noticed. 

But I want to get back to understanding the dishes. Who won? What was it about? I have heard on the grapevine that there were dishes there that colleagues who came from our community who were part of the judging, I believe, they said, I’ve never seen this, I’ve never had this before. So these were things that were being rediscovered. These weren’t just things that were in people’s memories, they were things that had [00:21:00] been forgotten. 

Moustapha: Exactly. They could not imagine those kind of dishes. They exist and they were natural and they were done with the local crops, and the potential is just there. I remember there is one of those dishes they made with millet, they put cowpea and some vegetable, and then they put some bullets of millet bran, the bullet, they stick there, and they put them. And they say that they’re considered as meats for that specific dish. And if you take it, you would think that you are eating a meat. You see? 

David: Sorry, I have to again give some context here. In the region, meat is priced. If you can afford it, you will want meat. 

Moustapha: Yes. 

David: And so to have the bran, which is what is normally thrown away or given to the animals, [00:22:00] transformed in such a way that it not only is added to the dish because it’s very healthy, but it also makes people feel that they’re getting meat. Oh, what a win, this is amazing. 

Moustapha: Yeah, exactly. So this is an example and there are some other very marginal crop foods, very, very rich in micronutrient, in vitamin. Because when we have the profile from the lab, those are very high in iron, zinc, pro vitamin A and so on, you see?

So they really knew what they were doing to feed their community and that’s why those old women during the event, some of them that are still alive, said that in the past they didn’t have malnutrition in their village compared to today because they’re not doing those food, those ancestral food. That’s why they [00:23:00] think they’re having those problems. 

David: Yeah. And I’m conscious we’re gonna have to wrap up because we are getting to the end, but this is not a bad place to finish. 

Moustapha: Okay. Yes. There are so many topics. 

David: There’s so much more we could do, ’cause I know you also did these amazing studies, I think, which had a gender component. Maybe during the week we’ll try and have another interview. 

Moustapha: Yes, exactly. Yes. 

David: But I wanted to finish with getting you to just say a little bit more about this cultural, the fact that the cultural aspect has been exposed, valued, historic aspect. How is this changing how people perceive your work, how, how you’re interacting? I mean, you’ve already mentioned how this is related to the governors, for example, taking notes. But what is it that you are feeling has changed recently with the work you’re doing, because you’ve been doing this for a long time, but I feel things have changed or are really changing now? Can you speak to that? 

Moustapha: Yeah, to me, [00:24:00] the big change I have seen is through the face of the impacted people, the community, the value, the work, the way they show us the benefits they’re getting. And they have all the details. Like if I come just to the social aspect, they will say, look Moustapha, before we were not together, before nobody know us in the village. We didn’t have any solution to save our children. We didn’t have any incomes. We didn’t have any this, any that. 

Even now, after your visit, they told me that tomorrow we were invited to one village. That was Falwell. That is like about 300 kilometers the other way to go and train about 100 women. And that was a [00:25:00] project that is going to fund it. They will be paid for everything and they will give their knowledge to those people. 

They say all this, without this, it did not exist. So to me, the project has really done its part because they are so confident of the change. And if you take the third parties like that medical doctor that also is convinced that their product has served people from his center. 

So all those are showing them and their seeds, they have some orphans that they direct to them. They give the same product and they do the same formula and you know, they’re very keen in respecting like guidance and orientation.

Anything you show to them, they would make sure to [00:26:00] respect it. You see? So all these, and also if we come to the digitalization, like the way we collect the data, the way they get, they understand. They say like, this questionnaire, just the one we recently completed, show us, like they learn. When they ask them a question about their context, about a specific problems or solution, it gives them some awareness.

They know where to take the answer, you see. And the last time we shared some of the results with them, they were very, very excited to see the changes the centers have brought in their communities. And they say it’s obvious because every time the other women where there is no centers, they come to them and ask them, those people, when are they coming back? When are we going to get our centre? You [00:27:00] see? 

So I think what we’re missing now is really documentation and capitalization, how to really document just like you are doing it, how to capitalize and how to share, how to share. Because is really, with confidence that they always express, they call, they ask, you know, when are you coming, when are you coming? Or when they do something specific or something like a change, they call us. Sometimes they inform me directly. Sometimes they call the other woman that came with me. You see? So there is a kind of spillover and sharing of satisfaction from them.

David: It’s so great to hear, and I think we do need another episode later this week, if we get the opportunity, where we dig into this, because I think this is where we’ve also [00:28:00] collaborated a bit on how that data works, how the feedback mechanisms can be going, and where there’s room for more innovation. This is a perfect topic for our next episode. 

Moustapha: I always remember you used to say it to us, Roger used to say it to us, always do small things and get a result that will get impact. You don’t need to have too many things and we’re seeing it. My conclusion is really this way of working, sometimes you think that the result is not important until now I still need to do something more. But when you see the way the people that are expecting that outcome, that result, reacted, I’m sure the impact, you’ll notice something very, very important that you did. [00:29:00] 

Like just this dishes, if we come to them. The mayor and so many other local authorities, when they came, they said that there was no group that come to remember them, that they have dishes that can serve them. The mayor, when he reacted about the potential of improving nutrition, he just said that when he was kid, he remember to eat some of those dishes, but at some point they disappear. And our group came to bring back those dishes that he remember. 

David: This is a wonderful point to finish on, and we need to have another session. We’ll do another session later this week, where we’ll go into some of the other aspects, particularly some of your scaling aspects. 

Moustapha: Yes, yes. 

David: But this is such a nice way to leave, it is this fact that the nutrition from the past can also be the nutrition for the [00:30:00] future.

Moustapha: Yeah, exactly. Yes. Yeah. 

David: What a wonderful point to end on. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this episode. 

Moustapha: And add to that, there was also the woman working with the health centers that witnessed that from her grandmother, that there were no malnutrition before, but now they have a lot of malnutrition problem. And she thought that it was the switch from those ancestral food in the community that really is creating this because they had that product I told you that have the bullet of bran as meat, so high in micronutrient, and it was really helping them to face all these issues. 

David: Absolutely. Thank you so much. 

Moustapha: Thank you. [00:31:00]